I Had a Terrible Marine Conservation Volunteering Experience. Here's How to Avoid my Mistakes.

Ep 010: Earlier this year, I went to volunteer with a marine conservation organization in the Bali area of Indonesia... and within three days of arriving, I had quit. This episode is the story of what happened, and more importantly, what I learned from it, so you don't have to make the same mistakes I did.

This episode is really about something bigger than any one organization. It's about how to vet a volunteering program before you commit your time and money, what red flags to actually take seriously, how to listen to your gut once you're there, and how to walk away when you need to. The marine conservation field needs more volunteers, but it needs you to be safe, supported, and treated with respect. Let's talk about how to make that more likely.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• How to vet a marine conservation organization beyond their website and curated reviews
• Why a real conversation (Zoom ideally, phone at minimum) is non-negotiable before you commit money
• Which pre-arrival red flags really matter, and why slow communication is information, not just an annoyance
• Why a nonprofit is still a business, and what good operational standards look like
• How to tell what your experience will be by watching how leaders treat the people already there
• When and how to quit, even after you've paid and traveled
• How to hold onto your own professional standards when you're being pressured to do things differently
• Why a shared mission doesn't automatically mean shared values, and how to spot the difference

Important note: I'm not naming the organization in this episode. I believe everyone trying to do marine conservation work has good intentions, even when execution falls short, and this isn't a podcast about tearing other people down. But if you're considering volunteering with a marine conservation program in the Bali area and you're worried it might be the one I'm describing, please reach out to me privately. DM me on Instagram or send an email, and I'll happily talk it through with you one-on-one.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I really didn't see it coming. Being in the same field, having the same passion does not equal a shared ethos or even basic respect. Your credentials are not the same thing as your character. This is Marine Conservation, the podcast where we talk ocean protection, science, activism, and everything that makes our watery world so endlessly fascinating. I'm your host, Casey Smith. I'm a marine scientist, environmental optimist, and die-hard ocean nerd who's dedicating my career to protecting the sea. Fighting for the health of our oceans isn't just my job, it's my passion. And I'm here to share that love with you. Join me and my guests as we chat all things ocean and share the science, stories, and solutions that keep it thriving. Whether you're a marine professional or you dream of becoming one, or you simply just love the ocean and want to learn how you can make a difference, you're in the right place. Ready? Grab your fins and let's dive in. So the title of this episode is a little bit clickbaity. I recognize that. I'm sorry about that. But I really did have a very terrible marine conservation volunteering experience. And it happened a few months ago when I was in Indonesia and it was so bad that within three days of arriving, I had quit. So I'm gonna tell you the story. I'm gonna tell you what happened and how to not make the same mistakes that I did, most importantly. But before I get into it, I just want to be really clear about something. So the point of this episode is not to bash another organization. I believe that everyone trying to do marine conservation, even if they're not doing successfully, uh, has good intentions. I want to believe that. And I don't want to be the kind of person that talks badly about another organization. It's not in good taste and it's not what this podcast is about. So for that reason, I'm not gonna name the organization. However, if you are planning to volunteer with a marine conservation program in the Bali general area in Indonesia, and you were maybe it's the one that I am talking about, the same organization, please reach out to me. We can talk about it in private. Um, send me an email, send me a DM on Instagram, and I'll happily share more information with you one-on-one. But that is not what this episode is about. It's not really about any one organization, actually, because a lot of organizations that are trying to do nonprofit work, especially marine conservation, which is traditionally quite underfunded and underrepresented, it's it's really hard. And sometimes it's not successful, and that's not always a bad thing. But we can avoid the bad situations by being careful about the organizations that we volunteer with and doing your due diligence beforehand. I thought that I had. Turns out I had not. So I'm gonna tell you my story and then I'm gonna give you a few tips on how to not make the mistakes I did. Okay, let's get into it. All right, so I found this organization online. Um some people that I have followed for a long time on the internet had volunteered with them, I had seen good things about them, I'd heard good things about them. They did things that I wanted to do, things like coral restoration, fish surveys, reef surveys, things like this. And I did my own research. Everything seemed legit and reputable. I read a lot of reviews, a lot of them are excellent, actually, all of them are excellent. I didn't see any bad reviews that put me off. I think in retrospect, the first like yellow flag was that the program that I wanted to do was too long for the time that I had. And I think traditionally, in a lot of marine conservation organizations, they take on volunteers for longer periods of time because especially if you're doing things like diving or things that require you to learn some skills first before you can actually do the work, you need a bit more time. And I didn't have it. So I was looking for something that I could do for about three weeks, and I was going to be finished with my dive instructor training. So I was gonna be a certified dive instructor at that point, and also with my marine science background, with my fish survey background, um, I thought that I could do what needed to be done in a three-week period based on the experience that I had. And I still think that it that I could have, that it would have been possible. But they were like, yes, we can do that. We can arrange a program for you that will just be three weeks. So I thought that was a good thing. But I think in retrospect, that's actually a bit of a, I'll call it a yellow flag. I don't think it was a red flag, but I think it was something that I should have considered and actually asked a bit more about. So a lot of these programs, sometimes they have volunteers that you can only come for like a month or two minimum. And if an organization will take you for a shorter period of time, sometimes that means that you're actually not going to be much benefit to them, and neither will they. I think that this may be less true because of the experience and qualifications that I had, at least I was hoping for that. But if you're pretty new to marine science and conservation, you don't have a lot of experience, and you're looking for something, a program that you can actually truly benefit from and also provide a lot of value, then going for just a couple of weeks is probably not the best way to do it. And if an organization says yes to that, then they might be more interested in just getting the money from you as opposed to actually helping you get where you want to go and actually taking advantage of what you can do for them. So little side note there, not as important. Let's talk about the red flags. So I paid the deposit and then communication completely dropped off. So I sent text messages to the founders, three, four, five emails, three, four, five text messages before I got a response, days and weeks worth of time in between them. So the point here is that a nonprofit actually is a business, and you have to treat your volunteers like they are customers. And, you know, I just chucked it up to, oh, you know, they're they're probably busy, and that's fine. Like I have difficulty responding to my messages, but these were business messages to potential customers and people that are paying to come and volunteer. So yeah, I did pay to go there. Um, a lot of volunteering organizations, they require payment, and this covers like the activities and diving and all of this. A lot of times it's more than fair, sometimes it's not. But um, I was not treated like a valued customer right from the beginning. It took me so long, it was like pulling teeth to get responses, and this should have been like a big red flag. So I thought I was coming from a good place. You know, I had just finished my dive instructor training, I have a master's degree in rain conservation, I've done a coral propagation certification. I wasn't green coming in. I had worked for about a year at that point with the uh Recreational Angler Survey here in Rhode Island. So I had a lot of fish ID and fish handling experience, things like this. I was really excited that I had a lot to contribute to this program. Another red flag that came up was I asked for preparation materials, things like, you know, reading, is there anything I can do to get ahead? I really want to jump in with both feet once I get there. And I was just continuously told, no, there's nothing you can do. Just come and then we'll figure everything out when you get here. And I'm not exaggerating. I was asking this question for months, like, can I study the fish ID? Can I study the coral? Like, what can I prep so when I get there, I can really go right in. And I was just told over and over that there was nothing I could do. And then I arrived on day one, and there's a massive Google Drive that was sent to me with all of this material, um, guides, resources, so much that I could have been studying the whole time. It was beyond frustrating to have traveled so far and gone there to do good work, so I thought, and it didn't seem to matter. They could have sent that to me ages ago, and then they just didn't. So at this point, even though it was only day one, the red flags had piled up a little bit. But you know, I'm just the kind of person who always wants to believe the best in people, always give people the benefit of the doubt, you know. I didn't want to think anything bad, it wasn't bad enough, you know. But that changed really quickly, unfortunately. So I think one of the breaking points for me was as early as day two, I was paired on a survey dive with a very young uh dive master trainee, and he was in charge of doing the briefing for the dive and was very minimal about it. And I, you know, I was like, okay, you know, this is what it is. I will do my best. It was my first ever reef survey. So I was bringing my camera along because I didn't trust my fish ID skills yet at that point for tropical species, and I unfortunately had my dive computer die, and the battery ran out uh the day before. So I had borrowed one from the dive shop and it was giving me very weird alerts. I don't know. I didn't like this computer, it was very strange to me. I didn't really know how to use it. Um, so we had a dive, and this buddy of mine, he was not really staying very close to me. He had not really given me a thorough briefing, but I'm a dive professional and I was like, okay, yeah, I can go with the flow. I feel comfortable, like I feel comfortable with the conditions, and you know, I know all the safety procedures, I feel okay. So then we were at the safety stop, and something was wrong with this computer that I had borrowed. It was beeping, it was giving me um a longer safety stop than normal. It was very strange. I signaled to my buddy that something was wrong with my computer, and he waited a couple minutes and then apparently got bored and he surfaced without me. In no world would I ever do that. You always stay together, even if you're at the safety stop, you know, you're at five meters, there's not a lot of risk at that level. But that is such an essential rule of diving, like you don't leave your buddy. So that happened, and I was so thrown by it. I was like, this is weird. In no world is this okay. But you know, young kid, probably like barely 20 years old. Um, although he was a dive master trainee, I think he was quite inexperienced. But it's okay. You don't, I don't hold it against people making errors. It happens, and that's okay. But even though I am a dive instructor, I wasn't his dive instructor, so I didn't feel like it was my place to really talk to him about how he could have improved his briefing, how he shouldn't have left me. So yeah, I sort of bit my tongue a little bit about that and just tried to carry on. So after this dive, we had a classroom session, and this is where the co-founder of this organization, so she's one woman who uh runs a lot of the operations and the programs within the organization, she essentially turned the whole situation around on me. So she told me that I needed to stay closer to my buddy and I needed to communicate more effectively, even though I wasn't the one who was leading the dive. And this is all very uncomfortable how she called me out in front of this guy. And there were also a bunch of smaller things that really gave me the uncomfortable feeling that led to this whole thing sort of coming to a head at one point. So using non-standard hand signals, which I think is okay as long as you brief, not doing safety stop the way that I learned it. So they said that I was doing it wrong by staying at five beaters for three minutes, which is what I've learned in every other place that I've dived around the world has done it the same way. They told me they did it a different way, a couple minutes at one depth and a couple minutes at another depth. And, you know, I don't take things at face value. I was like, okay, well, that's not how I learned it. I want to make sure that I am doing what I feel comfortable and safe doing. It was just this attitude of like their way was the right way. And when I see someone saying that, I I was curious. I was like, oh, so why do you do it that way? And there were this was not the only thing that happened. You know, there was a whole discussion about which way is the best way to inflate a SMB, a delayed service marker buoy. And also they had a way to inflate it that I had never seen before in my, you know, almost 200 dives. But I was just curious. And it was another thing that I was asking, like, hey, why do you do it this way? And it was always, oh, this is the better way. This is the preferred way. Um, preferred by who? You know, they couldn't tell me what was better about it. It was more just of like, it was such a superiority complex for whatever reason. And yeah, definitely a red flag of its own. And then while we were in this classroom session after the dive, the worst thing was watching this woman, the co-founder, speak to the dive master trainee that I had dived with. We were going over the fish that we had seen on the dive, showing photographs and identifying them for our reef survey. And she said things to him like, Oh, you should know this, you should be better than this by now, in a really condescending tone. And of course, he wasn't my student, but I really felt for him. It was so uncomfortable. And I felt like this really wasn't an emotional situation I wanted to be in. This wasn't the kind of place I wanted to be. So that night, night number two, I really felt like sick to my stomach. I had the ick for sure. And the next morning, I asked her if we could talk in private before the next round of dives. I really wanted to make sure I knew what my role was in the organization, because even though I was only there for three weeks, I wasn't treated the same way that like this dive master trainee was, for example. But I also, you know, I'm I'm an instructor, but I'm not their instructor. Like I have experience that they don't have, but they're still, you know, it was very confusing. We clearly weren't on the same page. And so I asked to sit down with her, and she sat down with me, and I said that I was not clear what my role was in the organization, and I just wanted to make sure that we could clarify that before moving forward. And instead of kind of working through that with me, she doubled down. She said it was my job to be more assertive, that I should have asked for a better briefing and that I uh should do things the way that they said I should do them, with you know, without questioning it basically. She basically really turned the blame about everything that had gone wrong onto me. And the nail in the coffin, for sure, was when she looked at me and she said, Have you ever been on a dive with another dive professional before? And I took a beat and I looked her right in the eyes and I said, That's a really insulting question. Because of course I have. I'm a dive instructor, and there is no version of being a dive professional or actually a diver full stop that has not been in the water with another dive professional. Your very first dive, you're taken by a dive professional. Like that wasn't a real question. It was designed to condescend me. And at that point, she pulled in another leader from the organization who clearly didn't want to be there. I could tell that he was afraid to push back on her, um, that he was maybe a bit afraid of her, to be honest. And eventually I was like, listen, this is uncomfortable. It seems we're not a good fit to work together. And she agreed really fast, almost too fast, and she offered me a refund immediately, honestly, seemed really glad to be rid of me. So that was it. I knew then that I wouldn't be continuing with this marine conservation organization. It was so disappointing because it wasn't about the work that they were doing. The work that they were doing was really interesting. There were a couple other people from this organization that were lovely, and I thought that the projects were great, but they weren't being executed in a way that made me feel good because the people were not treating the other people in the organization. They weren't treating each other well, they weren't treating me well. And the other volunteers that I got to know there, you know, it was the first day, and they were already telling me, like, listen, the vibes are not good, but we're already in it, you know, we're halfway through our dive master program, so we're gonna try to make the best of it, which is the saddest thing to hear from dive master trainees. Like, your dive master program should be one of the best experiences of your life. It was for me. All of those things, it was just confirmed to me uh pretty darn fast in the time that I was there. So after this conversation happened, the group they got on a boat to go for a dive. I stayed behind and I went down the street to another marine conservation organization just because I figured I was already in this one location. I might as well see if there's anything else that I can do. And I had gone past this place that I had recognized. And I went in and I just asked if they had anything that I could do for a couple of weeks. They said no that they were full, but they asked, of course, why I was asking, why I was there. And I told them that I had had a bad experience at another organization nearby. And they were like, oh, is it this one? Like they knew exactly which one it was. So that confirmed to me that, yeah, doesn't seem like this organization that I chose was truly a good one. Doesn't sound like they had a good reputation in the area. Just based on the reactions of the people at this other organization, I knew that I was making the right choice for sure. So later that day, I received a text message from the founder of the organization saying that they were ending my program and I laughed because I had already quit, you know? And so I um I wrote what probably was the most diplomatic message of my entire life to basically say, you can't fire me. I I already quit. And less than 24 hours later, I was back on the ferry to Kili Triwangan, where I had done my dive instructor training just a couple weeks before. And oh my goodness, the relief was instant. So obviously, this was a horrible experience. It was fraught with the kind of emotional turmoil I feel like I haven't experienced since like high school, you know? I felt so sick to my stomach that people could be so rude and so condescending and so dismissive of the skills and abilities that I brought to the table and my desire to help and how passionate I was. And I was just sort of like not given the time of day, not communicated effectively. And then when something went wrong, it was all put onto me. And it was really difficult to get through. But looking back, it was really easy to know I needed to leave. And I'm proud of myself that I did. But here's the thing that stuck with me the most. It's like so hard to imagine that you could have so little in common with people who share your career, your field, your mission, your reason for being. I just sort of assumed that someone who dedicated their life to brain conservation would share my ethos, that we would get along, that we would be friends, probably, you know, and it turns out not at all. I think that assumption is one of the things that that got me in trouble. So let's get into what you can learn from this so you don't make the same mistakes that I did. All right, so first thing is to thoroughly, thoroughly vet your organization. Unfortunately, there's no centralized database for conservation NGOs and charities. Um, specifically in Indonesia, apparently, registering as a charity is very difficult. This is what I was told by the other organization that I spoke with. So don't just read what it says on their website. Don't just read the reviews. You have to go deeper than this. Things to look for include a very clear mission, transparent structure, and responsive communication. Also looking for something like an impact report is really important. So most conservation organizations or any actually any charity worth their salt will do an impact report. And it's so important to do all of this before you commit any time or money. So I know this sounds really obvious, but I thought that I had done it, you know. I was looking at like what Yelp for marine conservation organizations, like reviews that this site or that the organization themselves had curated. So I really wasn't getting the full story. And actually, what I should have done is reached out to people that had already gone through their program and asked to speak with them directly, like maybe email, but actually like on the phone would have been even better. And that leads me to my next point, which is that you should a hundred percent demand an actual conversation in real life before you commit any money. So I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever sign up for a volunteer experience again without having a conversation. Ideally over Zoom, seeing somebody's face, you know, you can learn a lot. Um, but at the very minimum, a phone call and definitely with somebody in a position of leadership. So either the co founder of an organization or someone in a leadership position, a manager or someone. Somebody who organizes programs, things like this. You can read every glowing review on the internet, and the vibes can still be wrong. You have to pass the vibe check. It's very important. This can only happen in a real conversation. So not over text, not over email. Listen to me, a real human voice-to-voice conversation. This would have probably told me everything I needed to know. Because once I had a conversation with this woman, the co-founder of the orc, in person, I felt the ick. And I hate to say that. Usually, you know, I don't consider myself a judgmental person. I like to always give people the benefit of the doubt. But like when you know the vibes are wrong, the vibes are wrong. Like it was an air of condescension, it was an air of superiority. It was a like, I'm looking down my nose at you kind of attitude. And I for sure would have been able to pick that up with a conversation over Zoom. And I would have saved myself a lot of time and money and a heartache if I had done that, if I had known ahead of time that this was not the person that I wanted to work with. Because unfortunately, the leaders of an organization, they affect, I guess for better or worse, they affect the whole energy of the organization. They affect the way that the volunteers feel from day to day. I mean, every time that I met with a couple of the girls who were doing their dive master trainee program there, I had to listen to them talk about how bad the energy was, like all the things that were wrong, how they were so frustrated, they were so annoyed, they were they couldn't believe this was happening. It was supposed to be a great experience, and they were just having such a bad time. And I thought, dang, these are the people I should have reached out to before I committed any money. So reach out to the people in the organization. Yes. Make sure you have a call with them. And then also with the people that are either currently in the program or have gone through it and like graduated, completed the program. So lessons one and two. Both just talk to people. Talk to people. And number three, when you talk to those people, trust your God. So for example, radio silence after you make a payment, that is a bad sign. It's not just an annoyance. That's like a huge uh-oh, what have I just done? The slow responses, the vague answers, the things like, oh, there's nothing you could do to prepare. And then all of a sudden, here were all the things that I could do to prepare once I actually arrived. This was a pattern, you know, those things weren't one-off. They connected to each other, and I should have recognized that pattern as a problem. And I just sort of told myself, like, because it's a difficult field, you know, getting back to everybody is hard no matter what you do and who you are, you know, getting back to all of your texts and emails, it's challenging, you know. I I figured, oh, it's, you know, they're just busy. But I know now that that is not how a successful business or a successful organization is run. If people aren't communicating with you before you get there, don't expect them to be good at communicating with you after you get there. If anything, that communication is probably gonna go downhill even more. So pick up on those red flags, listen to your gut, and don't assume that they can be fixed once you arrive, because more than likely they can't. All right, so lesson number four is that a nonprofit is very much still a business. Just because they have a mission and it's altruistic and aspirational, that mission does not excuse bad management. Obviously, I've already said it in this episode, but I will say it again. I don't care how noble a mission is. You still need people that can lead, you still need safety protocols, and you need people that can actually make an organization a happy place to be. There were situations like the boat showing up an hour late and briefings that were sloppy and buddy checks that weren't thorough, and volunteers that were clearly favorites for the organization leaders and others that were kind of less important. Those are all serious operational problems and they're gonna affect your experience. Of course they are. And they're also gonna affect your safety. I definitely didn't feel like I was well taken care of while I was there. And that's the least that an organization can do if you're paying to go and volunteer with them. And yeah, that's really difficult because you want every charity that has a good mission to succeed in what they're doing. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that the people who are running them are good people. You want to assume that because why would people want to do conservation work or nonprofit work if they didn't have a mission to make change, to make positive change in the world? But it turns out that some people, even if they do feel that way, they're willing to use other people to get to their goals. They're willing to treat people poorly, they're willing to overlook safety procedures, and it's just it's unfortunate that it's like that. But I guess it's human nature to want to step on people below you to get to where you're going. And I naively thought that perhaps that wouldn't be the case for a conservation organization. And I was sadly proven wrong. So if you see evidence of bad management, things like disorganized logistics, inconsistent communication, favoritism, uh, safety protocols being overlooked or ignored, don't ignore that. Trust your gut and keep in mind that a nonprofit is still running a business. And if you're gonna be a customer, then you should get a fantastic customer experience. So lesson number five, I kind of already touched on this, but it's all about how people treat other people, really. I ended up arriving and so quickly, instantaneously almost, something felt off. And I heard from other volunteers how the leaders of the program were treating other people. It made me so sad, but I don't know why. I I didn't exactly think that I would be the exception to the rule, but I figured that I could take on sort of a different role in the organization because I was already a dive instructor, because I had all of the experience and skills that I already had. I thought that I would be able to be really helpful and that with my positivity and my drive, that I could make it a good experience still. But I saw different members there being talked down to. I saw favoritism very clearly, some people that were, you know, treated well, others that were not. And some people saying, like, the vibes are bad, but we're already in it. And I thought that I could change it just by sheer force of will, just by wanting to and being really positive and showing up and giving my best. And I couldn't. Spoiler alert, I was never gonna be the exception. The way that people treat other people is usually consistent. Of course, it often has more to do with them than it does with you, but it's a really big indicator of how the energy is going to be and how your experience is gonna be at that organization. So sadly enough, you're not gonna be the exception to the rule. If people at the organization are being treated badly, then you will be too. Lesson number six is you can quit. It's allowed. It feels terrible in the moment, but of course, sometimes it's the best choice to make. The sunk cost fallacy is real if you've already paid money for the program fees, for flights there, transportation, housing. You've already invested a lot to be there, and that's real. It's all the more reason not to spend any money before you really, really thoroughly vet the organization. But what if this does happen to you? What if you did all that and you get there and you're like, oh my god, I can't stay here. This situation is making me sick to my stomach. I need to get out. Do it. You can. Trust your gut. Even if you can't get your money back, sometimes that's the price of the lesson. Some lessons are hard won. And yeah, at least for me, a lost deposit was much better than me staying there, continuing to be treated poorly, continuing to feel this ick in my stomach. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes you did everything right. I'm not saying I did, I definitely did not, but say this happens to you. Say you're thinking about an organization you want to volunteer with, you call with them, you vet everything, and you get there and it still feels wrong and you don't want to stay. You can quit. It's okay. You can still take the experience, you learned a lot from it. Perhaps you actually did gain some field skills that you were hoping to gain. If you stayed there for a certain amount of time, you learned something, you could still take away a skill. I know that was true for me, you know, it wasn't a complete and total loss. I mean, I did learn a few things, at least, but sometimes it's better to just call it, take your loss and move on, and find something better next time. Okay, so lesson number seven is to trust your own professional standards. So, especially if you've been volunteering before, or if you worked in marine conservation or science, or you have been diving before, and you know that you're doing something in a way that is safe, in a way that is credible, in a way that makes the most sense, and someone tells you, no, you're doing it wrong, do it our way. Don't just take that at face value. Do your own diligence, do your research. If they suggest a different way to do something just because it's better, you know, I looked it up, I Googled it, and then I came to my own conclusions. I did my own research. I asked other people in my field about different things that people in this organization had said, yeah, we do it this way, it's better. And I took the time to consider what they said. But in the end, I believed that they were wrong. I was willing to stick to my professional standards and have them have an issue with it, as opposed to just do what they say because they said so. So that was really difficult. I think had I been younger, I might not have been able to do that with the pressure that they put on me. Um, if I hadn't had the experience that I have so far in my career, it might have been hard for me to push back. But I'm really glad that I'm at a point where I can, where I was like, uh, no, actually, no, I'm not gonna just do what you say because you say so. I know that I have learned things that are accurate, that are correct, safety protocols that I believe in that have served me well over many years of diving, for example. And I'm not just gonna change my ways because you said so. I question everything. That's just kind of the nature of a scientist, I think. I know it's very difficult when you have strong personalities bearing down on you, trying to convince you that you're wrong. And I think that it's really important to think for yourself. Make sure you vet your information. Don't dismiss it if somebody says something, but you know, do your own due diligence and do not lower your professional standards because somebody is talking down to you or trying to convince you that you're wrong. You know better than anyone the things that you've learned, the things that you feel safe and comfortable doing, and the standards that you hold yourself to. So do not bend just because somebody is unkind or somebody is pushy. Okay, and then lesson number eight, this is the saddest one of all, and I already did mention it a little bit, but I thought that being in the same field, having the same mission as somebody, it was gonna mean our values were very similar. I really didn't see it coming. Being in the same field, having the same passion does not equal a shared ethos or even basic respect. This woman in particular, just because she dedicated her career to ocean conservation, it didn't mean she had to be kind to us because she wasn't. She was very disrespectful, very condescending, and not competent at running a team. Same field, same passion, I think, same, you know, very similar, lofty, meaningful career goals. Turns out that none of that guarantees that you're gonna work together. Your credentials are not the same thing as your character. It's sad. I wish it was not that way. But unfortunately, you can have all the good intentions in the world and still not be successful at running your organization. Your mission is not the same thing as managing your program well. And yeah, it it sort of was like a very sad little bubble that burst on me because I guess I just thought that I had a comrade in every person also working in marine conservation around the world. And uh that's not true. Unfortunately, just like there are, you know, less than kind people everywhere in every field, in every walk of life. You know, that's sad. I didn't want that to be true in my field. I thought I knew the collective group of marine conservationists were passionate, were kind, were hardworking. You know, it was one of those moments where I was just like disappointed in humanity as a whole. But I've also decided that I'm not gonna let it bring me down. You know, I definitely needed to like cry it out for a bit. I needed to feel my feelings, I needed to be sad and disappointed and frustrated and angry, and you know, I needed to feel indignant and then I needed to pick myself back up and be like, yeah, I still care about the things I care about. This is not gonna stop me. I had one bad experience, I'm not gonna let it tear me down, and I'm gonna continue on. I'm gonna continue on with the mission that I have, with the passions that I have, and I'm gonna keep building my marine conservation career, and I'm not gonna let one bad experience bring me down. So that's my story. It's definitely an unfortunate one. It's one I for sure did not expect to happen to me. At least I can say that I did learn a lot. I hope that this episode is helpful for you so you don't make the same mistakes. So here's where I want to land with this. I'm telling you all this because I want you to volunteer in marine conservation. Of course, you should. The world needs more people doing this kind of work. Volunteering is amazing. It can be a fantastic experience to learn and to contribute to the work that's being done in this amazing field. But thoroughly vetting the organization is absolutely vital. You really can't do it without talking to people thoroughly, multiple people. You need multiple perspectives, you need multiple points of view, people from different parts of the organization, either leadership or people that are volunteering, like you will be. Talk to as many people as you can. Vet it so thoroughly and make sure that you're being communicated with well. If you're not getting a lot of communication from the organization, then try to find another one. It doesn't mean don't volunteer at all. It means find one that actually treats you as a paying customer and gives you the experience that you deserve. So thoroughly, thoroughly vet, listen to your gut, look for those red flags, but of course look for the green ones as well. And just remember a nonprofit is still a business. You should be treated like a paying customer. And as you vet your organizations that you're looking into volunteering with, focus specifically on how people talk to each other, how they treat each other, make sure that the energy is good, because that makes all the difference in the world. Don't forget to trust your professional standards. Don't lower yourself to any lower standards just because people are pressuring you to do so. If you don't believe in what people are telling you you should do, don't do it. And you're allowed to quit. You're allowed to say, I'm not gonna take this anymore. I'm gonna go find a kinder tide. And then sadly, remember that people who are in the same field as you, that have the same passion as you, doesn't necessarily mean they're going to respect you. Doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be good to work with. It might mean that they're plenty successful, but perhaps they're not gonna be the kind of energy that you want to surround yourself with. The good news is there are so many different marine conservation organizations around the world that you can volunteer with that have amazing people running them. I hope to have many of them on my show in the future so you can get to know them that way before committing to volunteering with them. So yeah, all hope is not lost, please. I know this is kind of a bummer of an episode, but I think it's really important to share lessons and treat everything as a learning experience, especially the bad things. And if it so happens that you end up having a bad experience too, please don't take it as a failure. You are not a failure. You're gonna learn a lot whether things go right or not, and you're gonna learn a lot about what you do and don't want out of an organization that you either volunteer with or that you perhaps work for. And the kind of people that you work for, the kind of systems that you work best with, the kind of red flags that are out there, you're gonna be wiser, you're gonna learn a lot about yourself, and then you're gonna have a much clearer picture of the kinds of things that you're looking for and not looking for going forward, whether it's for volunteering or for your career. So don't let one bad experience defeat you. I know it's tempting in the moment, but learn from it and then move on to the next thing. And then once again, if you are considering volunteering with a marine conservation program in the Bali area and you're worried that perhaps it is the one that I am talking about, please reach out to me, um, DM me on Instagram or send me an email. The email is in the show notes and in the show description. I'm happy to talk about it privately and hopefully help you find an organization that gives you a really positive experience. So don't give up on volunteering. It's really essential to gaining skills, to gaining experience in marine conservation. I promise you it is possible to have amazing marine conservation volunteer experiences. I have had many of them myself. So don't give up on that. Keep going. I'm proud of you, and you can do this. And if you have any questions or anything you'd like to ask, please reach out. I am more than happy to support you on the way. And yeah, let's find more people that have the same goals, the same dreams, the same mission in life, but are also wildly kind and only want to lift each other up and have an amazingly happy and meaningful and wonderful experience while at the same time making a difference for marine conservation. It is possible, I promise. I've seen it, I've done it. So let's all commit to making that a reality for ourselves and for each other. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of This Is Marine Conservation. Please rate and review the show. It's super, super helpful. Make sure you follow the show so you don't miss the next episode. And also share this episode with a friend if you think that they might be considering volunteering somewhere and you want to make sure they have the best experience possible. Well, thank you so much for your support, and I'll catch you next time on the next episode. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. It really helps other ocean lovers find the show. For the links in the show notes, head over to caseysnook.com slash podcast. And hey, if you have a friend who'd love this episode, make sure to send it their way and spread the ocean love. Remember, the ocean needs all of us to respect it, catch it, keep it wild. Each one of us can make a difference. Until next time, keep standing up for our seed, and I'll catch you on the next episode of this money out of the show.